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	<title>Comments on: Prop 8, Prop 2, and The PhD Tell-all Post</title>
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	<link>http://freerangelibrarian.com/2008/11/06/prop-8-prop-2-and-the-phd-tell-all-post/</link>
	<description>K.G. Schneider's blog on librarianship, writing, and everything else</description>
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		<title>By: Michael Golrick</title>
		<link>http://freerangelibrarian.com/2008/11/06/prop-8-prop-2-and-the-phd-tell-all-post/comment-page-1/#comment-443576</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Golrick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Mar 2009 15:14:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://freerangelibrarian.com/?p=1714#comment-443576</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t know how I missed this earlier.

While I have never entered a program, I constantly toy with the idea of getting some sort of doctorate so that I can teach in Library School. I was very close to applying for an EdD program in Educational Leadership in Bridgeport before I left, and it came up again during my recent job &quot;haitus.&quot; This last time, the geography was not right. You have got me thinking again, and while LSU does not have a PhD in Library Science, they do offer an EdD.....hmmm</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know how I missed this earlier.</p>
<p>While I have never entered a program, I constantly toy with the idea of getting some sort of doctorate so that I can teach in Library School. I was very close to applying for an EdD program in Educational Leadership in Bridgeport before I left, and it came up again during my recent job &#8220;haitus.&#8221; This last time, the geography was not right. You have got me thinking again, and while LSU does not have a PhD in Library Science, they do offer an EdD&#8230;..hmmm</p>
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		<title>By: K.G. Schneider</title>
		<link>http://freerangelibrarian.com/2008/11/06/prop-8-prop-2-and-the-phd-tell-all-post/comment-page-1/#comment-370566</link>
		<dc:creator>K.G. Schneider</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Nov 2008 21:31:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://freerangelibrarian.com/?p=1714#comment-370566</guid>
		<description>Nann, to &quot;feed a troll&quot; means to engage on the troll&#039;s terms. It doesn&#039;t mean to generate dispassionate but engaged discussion in re the troll&#039;s original point -- which wasn&#039;t very trollish, actually. In this case, I have had some queries in the past that suggest these comments haven&#039;t just been made online. So this was a great opportunity to correct the public record (with the caveat, there is always more to the story).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nann, to &#8220;feed a troll&#8221; means to engage on the troll&#8217;s terms. It doesn&#8217;t mean to generate dispassionate but engaged discussion in re the troll&#8217;s original point &#8212; which wasn&#8217;t very trollish, actually. In this case, I have had some queries in the past that suggest these comments haven&#8217;t just been made online. So this was a great opportunity to correct the public record (with the caveat, there is always more to the story).</p>
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		<title>By: Nann</title>
		<link>http://freerangelibrarian.com/2008/11/06/prop-8-prop-2-and-the-phd-tell-all-post/comment-page-1/#comment-370335</link>
		<dc:creator>Nann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Nov 2008 23:02:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://freerangelibrarian.com/?p=1714#comment-370335</guid>
		<description>Remember, &quot;don&#039;t feed the trolls&quot;!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Remember, &#8220;don&#8217;t feed the trolls&#8221;!</p>
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		<title>By: K.G. Schneider</title>
		<link>http://freerangelibrarian.com/2008/11/06/prop-8-prop-2-and-the-phd-tell-all-post/comment-page-1/#comment-370279</link>
		<dc:creator>K.G. Schneider</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Nov 2008 20:39:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://freerangelibrarian.com/?p=1714#comment-370279</guid>
		<description>Jon, you cracked me up... another great plus of the MFA in Writing: No. Group. Work. 

Feel free to play that violin... I haven&#039;t done group work assignments as an instructor, because honestly, I know I&#039;d be grading the efforts of one or two disgruntled folks. I&#039;d much rather grade individual effort. They can have the group work &quot;experience&quot; when they go to a library and are put on their first committees (har har).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jon, you cracked me up&#8230; another great plus of the MFA in Writing: No. Group. Work. </p>
<p>Feel free to play that violin&#8230; I haven&#8217;t done group work assignments as an instructor, because honestly, I know I&#8217;d be grading the efforts of one or two disgruntled folks. I&#8217;d much rather grade individual effort. They can have the group work &#8220;experience&#8221; when they go to a library and are put on their first committees (har har).</p>
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		<title>By: Jon Gorman</title>
		<link>http://freerangelibrarian.com/2008/11/06/prop-8-prop-2-and-the-phd-tell-all-post/comment-page-1/#comment-370174</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon Gorman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Nov 2008 15:04:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://freerangelibrarian.com/?p=1714#comment-370174</guid>
		<description>Zeke seems strangely familiar, as if I&#039;ve seen him troll somewhere else...

In any case I&#039;ve struggled with some of the same decisions myself.  I&#039;ve been encouraged as long as I&#039;ve been around Urbana-Champaign to enter the PhD program.  (Got my masters here and started working for the library on graduation.)

There were a couple of issues, one I just couldn&#039;t afford it, another is I still lack confidence in my ability to do substained research project, and finally I&#039;m still not sure if that would help or hinder what I&#039;d like to do.  Of course, I do admit I enjoy the teaching aspects of it and might even be good.

I guess technically I&#039;m still enrolled in the CAS program in digital libraries here at UIUC.  I&#039;ll admit I took two courses and I&#039;ve stopped.  Most of the coursework that&#039;s part of the &quot;program&quot; I either have taken or quite frankly I already know the material.  There&#039;s been a few popping up again lately that look interesting but I don&#039;t know if I want to give up that free time for a degree that might not be an asset and may even hinder me.

And the final straw?  Group work.  I just had to stop taking course for a while because the group experiences were the worse I&#039;ve had in academia, period.  Given my some of the groups I&#039;ve worked to get my undergraduate degree in computer science, this is saying something. I&#039;m not going to say more because I&#039;ll start melting down.

(Besides, this is your blog after all ;) )</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Zeke seems strangely familiar, as if I&#8217;ve seen him troll somewhere else&#8230;</p>
<p>In any case I&#8217;ve struggled with some of the same decisions myself.  I&#8217;ve been encouraged as long as I&#8217;ve been around Urbana-Champaign to enter the PhD program.  (Got my masters here and started working for the library on graduation.)</p>
<p>There were a couple of issues, one I just couldn&#8217;t afford it, another is I still lack confidence in my ability to do substained research project, and finally I&#8217;m still not sure if that would help or hinder what I&#8217;d like to do.  Of course, I do admit I enjoy the teaching aspects of it and might even be good.</p>
<p>I guess technically I&#8217;m still enrolled in the CAS program in digital libraries here at UIUC.  I&#8217;ll admit I took two courses and I&#8217;ve stopped.  Most of the coursework that&#8217;s part of the &#8220;program&#8221; I either have taken or quite frankly I already know the material.  There&#8217;s been a few popping up again lately that look interesting but I don&#8217;t know if I want to give up that free time for a degree that might not be an asset and may even hinder me.</p>
<p>And the final straw?  Group work.  I just had to stop taking course for a while because the group experiences were the worse I&#8217;ve had in academia, period.  Given my some of the groups I&#8217;ve worked to get my undergraduate degree in computer science, this is saying something. I&#8217;m not going to say more because I&#8217;ll start melting down.</p>
<p>(Besides, this is your blog after all <img src='http://freerangelibrarian.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' />  )</p>
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		<title>By: Genny</title>
		<link>http://freerangelibrarian.com/2008/11/06/prop-8-prop-2-and-the-phd-tell-all-post/comment-page-1/#comment-370047</link>
		<dc:creator>Genny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Nov 2008 08:24:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://freerangelibrarian.com/?p=1714#comment-370047</guid>
		<description>Don&#039;t tell me you ... too ... left grad school?

I left the graduate linguistics program at Berkeley after falling in love with what was then called &quot;library automation&quot; and serendipitously getting a job in it.  MELVYL system 1, linguistics 0!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Don&#8217;t tell me you &#8230; too &#8230; left grad school?</p>
<p>I left the graduate linguistics program at Berkeley after falling in love with what was then called &#8220;library automation&#8221; and serendipitously getting a job in it.  MELVYL system 1, linguistics 0!</p>
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		<title>By: John Mark Ockerbloom</title>
		<link>http://freerangelibrarian.com/2008/11/06/prop-8-prop-2-and-the-phd-tell-all-post/comment-page-1/#comment-369943</link>
		<dc:creator>John Mark Ockerbloom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Nov 2008 04:31:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://freerangelibrarian.com/?p=1714#comment-369943</guid>
		<description>&quot;Post-defense?&quot;

It&#039;s not uncommon in some departments to defend before your final dissertation draft is done.  That&#039;s what I did (I at least had a first full draft by then, but the final draft didn&#039;t get signed off until some months afterwards).  I&#039;ve known people who&#039;ve defended but never completed the dissertation, and didn&#039;t get the Ph.D.

As Joe Janes points out above, lots of people start a Ph.D. program and don&#039;t finish it.  Some of them realize pretty quickly that it&#039;s not for them.  Some go for a while and then find something else they&#039;d rather do.  Some drive themselves to continue longer than is good for them.

I&#039;ve been through it from start to finish.  It was a long journey for me, for various reasons, and sometimes was rather a slog (though I enjoyed lots of it too).  I&#039;m glad I finished, but I also know lots of folks who didn&#039;t, for various reasons (most of which had  *nothing* to do with whether they could &quot;cut it&quot;.) I don&#039;t see any dishonor for folks who step off the road to a PhD.   Nor do I think they are obligated to pretend that the PhD-seeking phase of their life didn&#039;t exist (whether on a resume or elsewhere).

I&#039;m pretty sure Karen&#039;s seen it already, but Dorothea Salo&#039;s written some &lt;a href=&quot;http://members.terracom.net/~dorothea/gradsch/straighttalk.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;useful advice&lt;/a&gt; about the problems one can encounter in grad school.  Readers considering grad school, or considering leaving it, or feeling guilty for leaving grad school, might find it of interest.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Post-defense?&#8221;</p>
<p>It&#8217;s not uncommon in some departments to defend before your final dissertation draft is done.  That&#8217;s what I did (I at least had a first full draft by then, but the final draft didn&#8217;t get signed off until some months afterwards).  I&#8217;ve known people who&#8217;ve defended but never completed the dissertation, and didn&#8217;t get the Ph.D.</p>
<p>As Joe Janes points out above, lots of people start a Ph.D. program and don&#8217;t finish it.  Some of them realize pretty quickly that it&#8217;s not for them.  Some go for a while and then find something else they&#8217;d rather do.  Some drive themselves to continue longer than is good for them.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve been through it from start to finish.  It was a long journey for me, for various reasons, and sometimes was rather a slog (though I enjoyed lots of it too).  I&#8217;m glad I finished, but I also know lots of folks who didn&#8217;t, for various reasons (most of which had  *nothing* to do with whether they could &#8220;cut it&#8221;.) I don&#8217;t see any dishonor for folks who step off the road to a PhD.   Nor do I think they are obligated to pretend that the PhD-seeking phase of their life didn&#8217;t exist (whether on a resume or elsewhere).</p>
<p>I&#8217;m pretty sure Karen&#8217;s seen it already, but Dorothea Salo&#8217;s written some <a href="http://members.terracom.net/~dorothea/gradsch/straighttalk.html" rel="nofollow">useful advice</a> about the problems one can encounter in grad school.  Readers considering grad school, or considering leaving it, or feeling guilty for leaving grad school, might find it of interest.</p>
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		<title>By: K.G. Schneider</title>
		<link>http://freerangelibrarian.com/2008/11/06/prop-8-prop-2-and-the-phd-tell-all-post/comment-page-1/#comment-369845</link>
		<dc:creator>K.G. Schneider</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Nov 2008 22:51:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://freerangelibrarian.com/?p=1714#comment-369845</guid>
		<description>(Post-defense?!)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(Post-defense?!)</p>
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		<title>By: K.G. Schneider</title>
		<link>http://freerangelibrarian.com/2008/11/06/prop-8-prop-2-and-the-phd-tell-all-post/comment-page-1/#comment-369844</link>
		<dc:creator>K.G. Schneider</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Nov 2008 22:51:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://freerangelibrarian.com/?p=1714#comment-369844</guid>
		<description>Joe, that&#039;s sweet. And I remember how you were a bright spot -- students hove to you like flies to honey. You even held breakfasts for us!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joe, that&#8217;s sweet. And I remember how you were a bright spot &#8212; students hove to you like flies to honey. You even held breakfasts for us!</p>
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		<title>By: Joe Janes</title>
		<link>http://freerangelibrarian.com/2008/11/06/prop-8-prop-2-and-the-phd-tell-all-post/comment-page-1/#comment-369843</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Janes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Nov 2008 22:48:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://freerangelibrarian.com/?p=1714#comment-369843</guid>
		<description>Not that it&#039;s going to make any difference, given Karen&#039;s usual fine prose and candor on the matter, but as someone who was there (on the faculty), I can confirm that Karen&#039;s departure from the PhD program at Michigan lo these may years ago was as she described it.  In addition, it made me and others very sad, as she was--and is--obviously eminently capable of doing a PhD program and doing it well.

I&#039;ve seen a lot of people leave such programs at all stages, from the second day (really), to post-defense but not finishing the final stages of completion.  So much of it, as Karen says, is about fit rather than capability, and if the fit ain&#039;t there, the sooner it&#039;s over the better.  Karen was wise enough to recognize it wasn&#039;t there for her, and more power to her.

Happily, our paths have crossed lots of times since then--yay for me!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not that it&#8217;s going to make any difference, given Karen&#8217;s usual fine prose and candor on the matter, but as someone who was there (on the faculty), I can confirm that Karen&#8217;s departure from the PhD program at Michigan lo these may years ago was as she described it.  In addition, it made me and others very sad, as she was&#8211;and is&#8211;obviously eminently capable of doing a PhD program and doing it well.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve seen a lot of people leave such programs at all stages, from the second day (really), to post-defense but not finishing the final stages of completion.  So much of it, as Karen says, is about fit rather than capability, and if the fit ain&#8217;t there, the sooner it&#8217;s over the better.  Karen was wise enough to recognize it wasn&#8217;t there for her, and more power to her.</p>
<p>Happily, our paths have crossed lots of times since then&#8211;yay for me!</p>
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